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Is It Rape?

Started by S.I.F. , author of Single Infertile Female: Now What? 2/4/2012 1:14:21 PM

We've talked about situations like this in the past, so when I saw it on Dear Prudie... I couldn't help to bring it here.

What would your reaction be if this was a friend of yours? Is it rape?

Q. Friend Has Revised One-Night Stand Story: A friend recently called me and said she had a one-night stand after drinking too much. She was beating herself up over drinking too much and going home with a guy she met at a bar. I reassured her that everyone makes mistakes and didn't think much more of the account. However, since then, she has told many people that she was a victim of date-rape—that the guy must have put something into her drink . She spoke to a rape crisis line, and they said even if she was drunk, she couldn't have given consent so she was a victim of rape. She now wants to press charges—she has the guy's business card. I have seen her very intoxicated on previous occasions, to the point she doesn't remember anything the next day. I'm not sure on what my response should be at this point. Pretend she never told me the original story?

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this.

Rhi's profile picture
Rhi said ...
Rape is NOT making a bad decision, regretting it, and then going back and changing your story later to make the guy, not you, look bad. All that does is make women who actually are raped look like sluts or like they are crying wolf. That ruins guys lives unnecessarily. And it pisses me off. If you are raped, it's not really something you realize later after feeling bad about sleeping with a stranger and talking about your one night stand.


Reply by Molly

author of Fletcher's Favorites 2/4/2012 1:57:54 PM

 

yes

Rhi's profile picture
Rhi said ...
I am trying to say this the right way, but I'm not sure how. First I want to say that yes, there are ABSOLUTELY instances where even if you are drunk, you can absolutely very clearly say "no" and the guy chooses to ignore it. There are times when you could be do blackout, passing out drunk you have no clue what is happening and are really powerless to stop or say "no", even if you are screaming it in your head, and a guy totally takes advantage of that, and that's rape, too.

Rape is NOT making a bad decision, regretting it, and then going back and changing your story later to make the guy, not you, look bad. All that does is make women who actually are raped look like sluts or like they are crying wolf. That ruins guys lives unnecessarily. And it pisses me off. If you are raped, it's not really something you realize later after feeling bad about sleeping with a stranger and talking about your one night stand.


 She definitely took an even strong stance throughout the chat:

Q. RE: One-Night Stand Story: If someone is intoxicated to the point where they are not able to remember their actions, or if they are stumbling around drunk, then they are not capable to consenting to sexual relations, and the friend may very well have been raped without having been given date-rape drugs ... Of course, I am not certain how this works if BOTH parties are falling down drunk ...

A: This is why it's a really good idea not to get so drunk you are no longer responsible for your actions. Presumably the guy was drinking, too. So two drunk people voluntarily stumble off to bed, then later she realizes that she actually wasn't in a condition to give consent, even though she may have appeared to be consenting. I take rape very, very seriously, but as we've seen in high-profile cases, many women get slammed with the notion that they've consented when they've truly been assaulted. If this case is as the friend describes, I think it's a big mistake for a woman to turn her mistake into a criminal matter.

 

 

Q. RE: Response to Date Rape: As a young woman who has drunk to the point of excess and hooked up with boys I maybe shouldn't have: I think calling this rape is totally unfair. I know that on occasions I have “blacked out,” some of my closest friends will be shocked the next day that I don’t remember much of the previous night (as I was acting relatively more sober than I was clearly feeling). Am I proud of these moments? Not at all. But do I blame the boys, also likely intoxicated? Well, then I'm as guilty as they are.

A: This letter writer makes the great point that while she was too drunk to remember what she was doing, she likely was acting a lot more sober than she was, thus giving the impression of consent.

 

 

Q. False Accusations: I have a real issue with the "I was so drunk I can't consent" argument, as a guy. My issue is this: A rape accusation, whether real or not, can ruin a man's life—it can ruin his professional and personal relationships among other things. Furthermore, the court of public opinion is far too quick to convict men (think Duke lacrosse team) without proof. The woman should ask herself if she really was raped or she really just drank too much, and unless she's 100% sure that she was raped, she should learn a lesson from this, not make her fellow one-night-stander into a victim.

A: Another great point. No one should have to defend himself against a false accusation like this. You are right that the consequences can be disastrous.

 

Rhi's profile picture
Rhi said ...
just read Prudie's response after I responded... glad to see we are on the same page :-)


Reply by Kellye

2/5/2012 2:25:37 PM

Not to play devil's advocate, just an FYI for future use... many women who are raped won't straight-up say the words "I was raped" for days, weeks, months, years later. Admitting you were raped is terribly hard for many survivors. Just because she initially phrased it as a "one night stand" and then later said it was "date rape" doesn't mean she was lying - perhaps she gained counseling, courage, understanding, etc between the 2 times she spoke about it.

Rhi's profile picture
Rhi said ...
 If you are raped, it's not really something you realize later after feeling bad about sleeping with a stranger and talking about your one night stand.


 I see what you're saying Kellye, but I have a very difficult time calling this woman a "survivor". I mean, seriously - at what point do we start holding women responsible for their own safety to an extent. When a man and a woman are both out drinking to the point of excess, and it ends up turning into a sexual encounter - I just really struggle with why all of a sudden the man is the perpetrator and the woman is the victim. They both made the same choice, and they both had too much to drink. I'm sorry, but that's a mistake - not a rape. Having too much to drink and putting yourself in a situation that you are later going to regret sucks, but it doesn't make you a survivor.  

Also... look down a bit on the main conversation page. Mulie has got a discussion looking for you about half-way down!


Kellye's profile picture
Kellye said ...
Not to play devil's advocate, just an FYI for future use... many women who are raped won't straight-up say the words "I was raped" for days, weeks, months, years later. Admitting you were raped is terribly hard for many survivors. Just because she initially phrased it as a "one night stand" and then later said it was "date rape" doesn't mean she was lying - perhaps she gained counseling, courage, understanding, etc between the 2 times she spoke about it.


 I see what you're saying Kellye, but I have a very difficult time calling this woman a "survivor". I mean, seriously - at what point do we start holding women responsible for their own safety to an extent. When a man and a woman are both out drinking to the point of excess, and it ends up turning into a sexual encounter - I just really struggle with why all of a sudden the man is the perpetrator and the woman is the victim. They both made the same choice, and they both had too much to drink. I'm sorry, but that's a mistake - not a rape. Having too much to drink and putting yourself in a situation that you are later going to regret sucks, but it doesn't make you a survivor.  

Also... look down a bit on the main conversation page. Mulie has got a discussion looking for you about half-way down!


Kellye's profile picture
Kellye said ...
Not to play devil's advocate, just an FYI for future use... many women who are raped won't straight-up say the words "I was raped" for days, weeks, months, years later. Admitting you were raped is terribly hard for many survivors. Just because she initially phrased it as a "one night stand" and then later said it was "date rape" doesn't mean she was lying - perhaps she gained counseling, courage, understanding, etc between the 2 times she spoke about it.


Reply by Kellye

2/5/2012 4:17:07 PM

I'm not saying anything one way or the other about this woman/her story on Dear Prudie (and, in general, shy from doing so in any circumstance - IDK how much she drank, how much he drank, how well he tolerates alcohol, how well she tolerates alcohol, how the sex was initiated... etc etc etc).

I was speaking in generalized terms, as an FYI/for future reference. And since I wasn't speaking specifically about this woman, I believe "survivor" is the correct term to use when referring to anyone who was raped, and did not pass away.

S.I.F.'s profile picture
S.I.F. said ...
 I see what you're saying Kellye, but I have a very difficult time calling this woman a "survivor". I mean, seriously - at what point do we start holding women responsible for their own safety to an extent. When a man and a woman are both out drinking to the point of excess, and it ends up turning into a sexual encounter - I just really struggle with why all of a sudden the man is the perpetrator and the woman is the victim. They both made the same choice, and they both had too much to drink. I'm sorry, but that's a mistake - not a rape. Having too much to drink and putting yourself in a situation that you are later going to regret sucks, but it doesn't make you a survivor.  

Thanks for the heads up smiley

S.I.F.'s profile picture
S.I.F. said ...
Also... look down a bit on the main conversation page. Mulie has got a discussion looking for you about half-way down!


Reply by Rachel

2/5/2012 8:43:53 PM

The girl in the story below could be my friend, who flirted with bringing rape accusations against a guy she slept with while blacked out. A mutual friend of ours flipped out when she considered it because she was with both of them that night and said that that while she might have been black out drunk, she seemed sober and the guy seemed far more drunk than she did. 

I can understand the violation you feel after realizing you did something regretful the night before, but that feeling alone is not enough to call it rape. I think there has to be some sort of intention to take advantage on the guy's part for it to be rape. That might bet ignoring protests of "no" or taking advantage of a girl who is far more drunk, but it is not two drunk people with lowered inhibitions who simply go home together.


S.I.F.'s profile picture
undefined said ...
Q. RE: Response to Date Rape: As a young woman who has drunk to the point of excess and hooked up with boys I maybe shouldn't have: I think calling this rape is totally unfair. I know that on occasions I have “blacked out,” some of my closest friends will be shocked the next day that I don’t remember much of the previous night (as I was acting relatively more sober than I was clearly feeling). Am I proud of these moments? Not at all. But do I blame the boys, also likely intoxicated? Well, then I'm as guilty as they are.


Completely agree Rachel.  


Rachel's profile picture
Rachel said ...
I can understand the violation you feel after realizing you did something regretful the night before, but that feeling alone is not enough to call it rape. I think there has to be some sort of intention to take advantage on the guy's part for it to be rape. That might bet ignoring protests of "no" or taking advantage of a girl who is far more drunk, but it is not two drunk people with lowered inhibitions who simply go home together.


Reply by millie

author of Ship of Fools 2/6/2012 4:59:08 AM

This.


Rachel's profile picture
Rachel said ...
I can understand the violation you feel after realizing you did something regretful the night before, but that feeling alone is not enough to call it rape. I think there has to be some sort of intention to take advantage on the guy's part for it to be rape. That might bet ignoring protests of "no" or taking advantage of a girl who is far more drunk, but it is not two drunk people with lowered inhibitions who simply go home together.


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